Had Andy Warhol lived to see the internet–especially social networking–he would have loved it, though it may not have loved him. Though Warhol did see the very beginnings of the PC revolution, and made computer art near the end of his life on a Commodore Amiga 1000, he was mostly enamored, unsurprisingly, of TV. “I love television,” he once remarked, “It is the medium I’d most like to shine in. I’m really jealous of everybody who’s got their own show on television. I want a show of my own.”
Warhol realized his dream in 1979, though in a venue that may not have lived up to his fantasies: a New York public-access channel called Manhattan Cable, “which showed local sports matches and agreed to sell 30-minute slots to Warhol for around $75 a pop,” notes The Telegraph. Warhol made a total of 42 episodes of his odd interview show. The pop art impresario “wasn’t exactly a natural… when it came to the delicate art of chat-show hosting,” but “he didn’t let that stop him.” By 1983, one might have thought he’d have gotten the hang of it, yet he seems especially awkward when cranky prog genius Frank Zappa appeared on his show that year.
Luckily for Warhol, he is joined by Zappa fan Richard Berlin, who serves as a buffer between the two superstars. (Berlin is probably the son of William Randolph Hearst’s handpicked successor, whose daughter, Brigid, was one of Warhol’s film stars.) At least in the excerpt above, Berlin does all of the work while Warhol looks on, seemingly stupefied. But the truth is that Warhol hated Zappa, and after the interview, he wrote in his Diaries, “I hated Zappa even more than when it started.” Part of what the show’s ostensible host found so objectionable was Zappa’s egomaniacal personality. Though Warhol, like Zappa, controlled his own small independent empire, in temperament, the two couldn’t have been more different.
But there was also some personal history between them that went back to the earliest days of the Velvet Underground. “I remember,” Warhol goes on, “when he was so mean to us when the Mothers of Invention played with the Velvet Underground—I think both at the trip, in L.A., and at the Fillmore in San Francisco. I hated him then and I still don’t like him.” Zappa wasn’t simply rude, however; at a 1967 show in New York, he turned his talent for ridicule into what Kaleidoscope magazine writer Chris Darrow called “one of the greatest pieces of rock’n roll theater that I have ever seen.”
The opening night was very crowded and Zappa and members of the Mothers of Invention showed up to show their support. (…) Nico’s delivery of her material was very flat, deadpan, and expressionless, and she played as though all of her songs were dirges. She seemed as though she was trying to resurrect the ennui and decadence of Weimar, pre-Hitler Germany. Her icy, Nordic image also added to the detachment of her delivery. (…) The audience was on her side, as she was in her element and the Warhol contingent was very prominent that night. However, what happened next is what sticks in my mind the most from that night. In between sets, Frank Zappa got up from his seat and walked up on the stage and sat behind the keyboard of Nico’s B‑3 organ. He proceeded to place his hands indiscriminately on the keyboard in a total, atonal fashion and screamed at the top of his lungs, doing a caricature of Nico’s set, the one he had just seen. The words to his impromptu song were the names of vegetables like broccoli, cabbage, asparagus… This “song” kept going for about a minute or so and then suddenly stopped. He walked off the stage and the show moved on.
What Warhol took personally may have just been the irrepressible outgrowth of Zappa’s disdain for virtually everything, which he expresses to Berlin in the interview. Original Mothers of Invention drummer Jimmy Carl Black speculated that he may have hated the Velvet Underground because “they were junkies and Frank just couldn’t tolerate any kind of drugs.” The two bands were also, briefly, competitors at MGM.
But perhaps Zappa just couldn’t tolerate anyone else taking the spotlight, especially a talented female performer. Warhol remembers Zappa’s response to a compliment about his daughter, Moon. “Listen,” he supposedly told Warhol, “I created her. I invented her.… She’s nothing. It’s all me.” In contrast to the “peculiar” reply, Warhol writes “if it were my daughter I would be saying ‘Gee, she’s so smart,’ but he’s taking all the credit.” Zappa may have been a musical genius with a special entrepreneurial flair and incisive critical wit, but the “sexist autocrat… with a scabrous attitude,” as Carlo Wolff describes him, “was not a likeable man.” Certainly the mild-mannered Warhol didn’t think so.
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Josh Jones is a writer and musician based in Durham, NC. Follow him at @jdmagness
He hated him because Frank called out Phonies like him.
Pittsburgh is so lame, slimy Andy is actually revered. So said. Wish Frank grew up here.
Zappa praised velvet undergrounds first album and had some input on their second. What he did I imagine more reflects his confrontational ways.
Maybe Andy was afraid of his intelligence
I imagine what Warhol and Zappa had in common is what Warhol didn’t like about Zappa.
Both praised as geniuses by many, both seen as BS artists by the majority. I see a lot of similarities in their approach to art and motivation yet huge differences in their Meyers-Briggs especially around the E or I in ways that I imagine would cause Andy the hate Frank but not the other way around.
Andy Warhol was a fake who got rich and famous on gullibility. Con men do well in the United States, but it doesn’t mean they have value. Who cares what he liked or didn’t like?
Zappa was FAR more of an asshole than he was a genius. But if ever anybody were convinced of his own supposed genius, it was Zappa. His Mr. Smug routine even made John Denver and Donny Osmond look more intelligent and mature than him during those ridiculous congressional hearings about rating records. At least Warhol was in on his own joke. Zappa should have continually placed the microphone closer to his own rear-end to better get his points across.
What, pray tell, did Frank Zappa have to do with the second Velvet Underground album??!
Either that or his misogyny, homophobia, racism, and malignant self-regard. I guess it’s a toss-up.
Zappa called out bullshite, Andy, so it’s not surprising that you didn’t like him. Don’t feel special, tho, he didn’t like too many ppl and he was rude to poseurs, like you. Dennis (Carnegie Mellon U — like you, Andy)
Zappa was a dick and most of his music garbage parady. Warhol about the same.
They say that people despise most what they see in themselves
Maybe it took one to know one
Andy Warhol exploited and ruined a lot of young, impressionable lives. “Factory” folk called him “Drella” Combining Dracula with Cinderella. How apt.
Zappa’s noise is garbage. Useless noise making fools out of his supporters
What Zappa and Warhol have in common is that after hearing the “music” or looking at the art most honest people say, “I don’t get it.” Others who don’t hold that opinion are mostly liars or lunatics.
I liked both of their artistic production, but I could not really care at all about who was the bigger asshole.
Zappa fulla Crapa was the turd in Twinkletoe’s punch bowl . Though both were hugely narcissistic mediocrities, But for meanness (naming his kids Moon Unit and Dweevzil ) the perverse and cranky Frankie definitely takes the cake. However in positing this somewhat cynical critique, I must acknowledge the fact that I generally, and almost always happily applaud zaniness, so these two larger (or smaller) than life characters coming together and bouncing off of each other’s inflated egos, I find to be strangely appealing, in a David Lynch kinda way.
I think they both were great in there particular mediums
“Misogynist, homophobia, blah blah.…” Yawn.… G.…A.…F.…L
The typical homophobia and misogyny lower mid-wit squawking is to be expected but people saying that Frank was a hack or a mediocre composer/musician, that’s next level stupidity. Next time just say, “I don’t know a single thing about music, I don’t care to and here I am on the internet showing everyone how stupid I am.”🤣 The guy had the greatest musicians in the world competing against each other to be in his band for his entire career and practically every single musician who ever worked with him regarded him as one of the most creative, talented musicians and composers they ever knew, even the ones who weren’t very friendly with him, even the ones he kicked out of the band for using drugs. Your opinions are subjective but your ignorance is purely objective.
Well said, IHM.
Sure, Zappa was arrogant. But he had the goods. If you don’t know his work on more than a superficial level, listen more & type less.
Jimmy Carl Black would know better than anyone. i knew him. He was great drummer and good people. Most probably Frank hated the Velevets cause of their drug use.
Fz doing a keyboard impromptu vocal pieceimatating Nico is, to me, a huge compliment not a dig
Maybe he wanted show her how to call any vegetable by name.
Maybe so Nico to could know how sexy vegetables can really be?
FZ was the real deal. And he could be a real ass hole too.
He wrote it
” You’re an Asshole”
That makes him an expert Maybe .
Regardless he was a great composer, guitarist, producer.band leader, artist etc.
Google say jt productions
“Zappa Beefheart “or
” She Dances in the wind”
I wrote those.
FZ inspired me to compose music
Wow, this name drops a truckstop’s worth of talentless misfits.
The greatest musicians in the world. That works if you have a remarkably attenuated knowledge of musicians. Zappa was, above all, a master of pretension. It’s dubious to even call his product music.
Almost right, but Zappa doesn’t make fools of them, he simply exploited their natural dispositions.
Speaking of pretentious.
The best post; rich with irony.
In the 18th century it was the custom to capitalize nouns such as “Phonies.” It’s nice that you are keeping archaic English alive.
Do mean ole Frank hurt you?
I like both bands but of all the people quoted I trust Jimmy Carl Black’s statements as true . Frank Zappa recycled a lot of his music, retitled it and passed it off as “new”. He was a gifted composer and musician but he hated any type of authority ( deservedly) and current competitors such as The Velvet Underground which Andy Warhol produced labeling them as “phonies “. Both bands couldn’t be more far apart. The root cause of Zappa’s hatred is most likely his loveless upbringing, his physical ugliness, and the critical success of TVU which he didn’t achieve at the time. TVU’s debut album was far more appealing and to this day loved than Frank’s “Freak Out”, poorly recorded and produced with 90% crap music sold as “art”. In later years Zappa’s success and popularity was at best marginal and not mainstream as Warhol has achieved although in entirely different markets. Zappa was a bitter, angry and nasty man. Very intelligent but his ugliness was from both inside and out. The guy in England who pushed him offstage for being a jerk went basically unpunished, and Zappa suffered physical pain for the rest of his life. Warhol died after a routine gall bladder operation due to a Typval New York medical malpractice, while Zappa died of his own stupidity: lack of self care and perpetual chain smoking crates of cigarettes per day for decades. The prostate cancer didn’t come from thin air. While Andy Warhol’s death was mourned by billions around the world, Zappa’s death was mourned by the freaks he surrounded himself with from captain beefheart to convicted pedophile bassist Roy Estrada to Wild Man Fischer. All garbage, as was 75% of Zappa’s music. A very sick little man. He didn’t fare better on SNL either. An asshole. Good riddance to Frank. We still miss you, Andy.
It’s telling that the worst writing and spelling in this thread comes from people attacking Zappa. That and those bending over backwards to do the wokey pokey.
I know music is subjective, but to say 75% of Frank’s music was crap, is an ignorant statement, he released dozens of albums, with a wide variety of songs and compositions, with extremely talented musicians, including Steve Vai, one of the greatest guitarists on Earth, Freak Out was only one album, not a very serious record, listen to other of his releases, he was absolutely a musical genius, an amazing guitarist and composer, don’t be a hater, keep it real
I saw those hearings (and a subsequent discussion on rock censorship that was aired as a desperate attempt to make Tipper Gore’s hysteria look legitimate) and Zappa was cool, calm, collected and intelligent.
I don’t get a lot of the anti-Zappa posts I am seeing unless it is based on the attention Zappa had dating back to the 1960s as someone who was intelligent, articulate, taken seriously and had a personal interest in freedom of speech.
Warhol was content to bask in the glow of admirers; Zappa actually put himself out there as a consistent advocate for free speech and was consistently anti-censorship. He was willing to take risks. Warhol really never did.
Zappa wasn’t perfect but at least he put himself on the line. He wasn’t protected by the arts community as Warhol was.
Interviewed by Mojo Magazine Lou Reed revealed that during the recording of The Velvet Underground’s album White Light/White Heat (1968) Zappa and the Mothers were recording at the same studio. Reed said that the sound effect of a knife stabbing through the protagonist’s skull in the song The Gift from that album was actually suggested by Frank Zappa: “You’ll get a better sound if you do it this way.”, he said. According to Reed Zappa also said: “You know, I’m really surprised by how much I like your album.” [3]
Not a big assist, but something.
A few folks trace the animosity between the bands to Zappa getting his debut released before the VU’S debut(and they were in competition for PR support) and, at least in the word of Jimmy Carl Black, Frank didn’t like drug use and the VU were pretty much addicted to heroin.
Zappa once cited “All Tomorrow’s Parties” as one of his favorite songs. The Velvets were also jealous of the United States of America (Nico wanted to join the group) and knocked over all their equipment at a show.
Reed later softened in his assessment of Zappa, too.
I was a big Mothers’ fan but never warmed to the VU, probably because I thought they took themselves far too seriously, a common problem with rock groups of the time. Zappa was serious, but never came across that way to me.
The interest in stirring up controversy over a minor encounter that happened 50 years ago between two dead people is fascinating to me.
Even if I were SOMEBODY in that world, Warhol’s opinion of me would be fairly irrelevant.
How anyone feels about Zappa or Warhol is their business; I was just pointing out Zappa’s “assistance” on the 2nd VU album.
Lots of fascinating info here that shows the complexities of Xappa and the VU. Appreciate your comment and the nod to the brilliant group the United States of America. Thanks.
He suggested (recording in the same studio as them) they hit a cantaloupe melon to emulate a blade hitting a head for the track called The Gift.….not much I grant you .…but a contribution none the less!
Frank hated the VU because they were bad at playing their instruments.
Ironic that it was Reed who inducted Frank into the R&RHOF.
Thank you !
I believe Rick Berlin was a founding member of the Boston band Berlin Airlift. He was from the Philadelphia and,if I remember correctly, his given name was Kinscherf.
I believe Rick Berlin was a founding member of the Boston band Berlin Airlift. He was from the Philadelphia area originally, and,if I remember correctly, his last name was Kinscherf. We attended the same prep school there. He was a year or two ahead of me.
I’m with Donnie.
This is a lot coming out of a guy who played a bicycle.
Musically very talented, but even I, as a progress never really got into him. I did see his ‘Shut up and Play Your Guitar’ tour in about 1983 I think. It was one continuous jam, until someone thru the rubber chicken on stage, as wa a tradition at his concerts. He stopped the music, made some remarks, and on they continued.
Oh. Because the Chelsea Hotel scene wasn’t a sexist pit of a place to exist as a woman. Andy Warhol belittled women on the regular. Get your facts straight before you start flinging accusations.
Today’s technology offers the wonderful option of removing vocals from Zappa (as well as Grateful Dead) recordings.
We’re full of admiration. For how the US elevates. All that is mediocre (almost all).
Like Zappa we left Baltimore, Murderland, but we went east, not west.
Andy was born in 1928, same as Fats Domino, Serge Gainsbourg and Donald Judd.
Zappy in 1940, same as Micki Harris (Shirelles), Smokey Robinson, Al Jarreau, Herbie Hancock,same as a Beatles, and the Righteous Brothers (Bill Medley, Bobby Hatfield, John and Ringo).
Like Zappa we left Baltimore, Murderland, but we went east not west. It seems to have a lot to do with why I’m almost always thinking, wondering, yadda, yadda, yadda. No way these anglo-celebie-clowns will stand the test of time. Esp when I think of 500 years ago (Erasmus), 300 years ago (Vermeer), 100 years (Debussy).
Come the year 2150, these two will be on Wikipedia, but just can’t see folks, esp outside Killsville, being very deeply interested in their whining.
I can understand that people don’t like Zappa’s music but anyone who don’t recognise his musical genius actually knows nothing about Zappa’s music or nothing about musical composition. Zappa was as far as I am concerned the greatest composer the 20th century had to offer. Also Zappa was not racist at all, he was not homophobic and actually pretty progressive in regard to women.
He just liked to produce rude comedy about every demographic. . Was he a nice guy? Depending who you talk to you get different answers. I personally have spoken and played with some musicians who played with him and they described him as pretty laid back and respectful.
In other words, your comments are as grotesk as they are ignorant.
Tell everyone where Frank touched you.
Zappa had talent. Warhol took pictures of soup cans
Amen!!
Look up the word ‘philistine’. You might see your photo there.
Zappa is a typical California hipster asshole, Warhol is a typical New York hipster asshole. Both were vying for the position of the authority on what is cool, but they couldn’t agree on what it is. Zappa was on the supreme level of technical ability and mastery of one’s craft, yet practically unlistenable and not appealing to the masses to say the least, Warhol practically the reverse, fine art dumbed down to the simplest form yet mass appeal for days. I actually like Warhols approach more and I am a musician.
Anyone who says “I don’t get it” about Zappa’s music either hasn’t listened to it or has never bothered to learn the first thing about composition. It’s ok to say “I don’t like it”, that’s pure opinion and every arsehole has one, but claiming someone is a liar because they don’t say “I don’t get it” is displaying ignorance of the highest order.
Heck, I know I am!
Frank displays a sort of Midwestern type of common sense
to tell it like it is,except with genius-like confidence. It’s something that can irritate some people.Sort of like George Carlin without the moniker of being a comedian
Um, he created an entire Art movement and a scene, he had ideas and talent to back it. He wrote books, had a great sense of humor, was extremely intelligent, created a fashion movement, discovered bands and actors, and pretty much tried a lot of stuff good and BAD. Oh I forgot he started Interview Magazine and coined the phrases “superstar” and said “in the future everyone will be famous for 15 minutes” and he was right. Who care what he thinks? Anyone with style.
Andy created an entire Art movement and a scene, he had ideas and talent to back it. He wrote books, had a great sense of humor, created a fashion movement, discovered bands and actors, and pretty much tried a lot of stuff good and BAD. Oh I forgot he started Interview Magazine and coined the phrases “superstar” and said “in the future everyone will be famous for 15 minutes” and he was right. Who cares what he thinks? Anyone with style.
Zappa is one of, if not the most, over-rated musical artists in modern history, and that’s considering his relatively mid standing among critics.
Can’t argue that Warhol absolutely used every woman who passed through his “collective” in the most belittling way, but to be fair? Warhol built his entire career upon the arrogant use and abuse of EVERYTHING in his world…his greatest talent was his ability to spot potential in others, then exploiting the living hell out of them until the 15 minutes Warhol granted them were used up.
And in the name of complete fairness, Frank Zappa did the exact same thing with the musicians in his circle. Main difference is, Frank never lied about being a pretentious asshole.