J. R. R. Tolkien Admitted to Disliking Dune “With Some Intensity” (1966)

One can eas­i­ly imag­ine a read­er enjoy­ing both The Lord of the Rings and Dune. Both of those works of epic fan­ta­sy were pub­lished in the form of a series of long nov­els begin­ning in the mid-twen­ti­eth cen­tu­ry; both cre­ate elab­o­rate worlds of their own, right down to details of ecol­o­gy and lan­guage; both seri­ous­ly (and these days, unfash­ion­ably) con­cern them­selves with the theme of what con­sti­tutes hero­ic action; both have even inspired mul­ti­ple big-bud­get Hol­ly­wood spec­ta­cles. The read­er equal­ly ded­i­cat­ed to the work of J. R. R. Tolkien and Frank Her­bert turns out to be a more elu­sive crea­ture than we may expect, but per­haps that should­n’t sur­prise us, giv­en Tolkien’s own atti­tude toward Dune.

“It is impos­si­ble for an author still writ­ing to be fair to anoth­er author work­ing along the same lines,” Tolkien wrote in 1966 to a fan who’d sent him a copy of Her­bert’s book, which had come out the year before. “In fact I dis­like DUNE with some inten­si­ty, and in that unfor­tu­nate case it is much the best and fairest to anoth­er author to keep silent and refuse to com­ment.”

That lack of elab­o­ra­tion has, if any­thing, only stoked the curios­i­ty of Lord of the Rings and Dune enthu­si­asts alike, as evi­denced by this thread from a few years ago on the r/tolkienfans sub­red­dit. Was it the mate­ri­al­ism and Machi­avel­lian­ism implic­it in Dune’s world­view? The pre­pon­der­ance of invent­ed names and coinages that sure­ly would­n’t meet the ety­mo­log­i­cal stan­dard of an Oxford lin­guist?

Maybe it was the aris­to­crat­ic iso­la­tion — a kind of anti-fel­low­ship — of its pro­tag­o­nist Paul Atrei­des, who comes to pos­sess the equiv­a­lent of Tolkien’s Ring of Pow­er. “In Dune, Paul will­ing­ly takes the (metaphor­i­cal) ring and wields it,” writes Evan Ama­to at The Cul­tur­ist. “He leads, trans­forms, and con­quers. The uni­verse bends to his vision. He suf­fers for it, yes, and ques­tions it, but he nev­er tru­ly rejects the call to rule. Con­trast this with the world of Mid­dle-earth, where all Tolkien’s heroes do the oppo­site. When Fro­do offers the Ring to Aragorn, he refus­es. Even Sam­wise, hum­ble as he is, feels the surge of the Ring’s pow­er, and lets it go.” Assum­ing he man­aged to get through the first Dune nov­el, Tolkien could hard­ly have approved of the nar­ra­tive’s moral arc. Whether his or Her­bert’s vision puts up the more real­is­tic alle­go­ry for human­i­ty’s lot is anoth­er mat­ter entire­ly.

Relat­ed Con­tent:

J. R. R. Tolkien Expressed a “Heart­felt Loathing” for Walt Dis­ney and Refused to Let Dis­ney Stu­dios Adapt His Work

Frank Her­bert Explains the Ori­gins of Dune (1969)

When the Nobel Prize Com­mit­tee Reject­ed The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien “Has Not Mea­sured Up to Sto­ry­telling of the High­est Qual­i­ty” (1961)

Why You Should Read Dune: An Ani­mat­ed Intro­duc­tion to Frank Herbert’s Eco­log­i­cal, Psy­cho­log­i­cal Sci-Fi Epic

J. R. R. Tolkien Writes & Speaks in Elvish, a Lan­guage He Invent­ed for The Lord of the Rings

Based in Seoul, Col­in Marshall writes and broad­casts on cities, lan­guage, and cul­ture. His projects include the Sub­stack newslet­ter Books on Cities and the book The State­less City: a Walk through 21st-Cen­tu­ry Los Ange­les. Fol­low him on the social net­work for­mer­ly known as Twit­ter at @colinmarshall.

 


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  • Kaplan MacGuffin says:

    I’d argue that Tolkien’s work sits square­ly in the Hero’s Jour­ney camp and is the mod­el for prophe­cied heroes, ah la Aragorn. Dune on the oth­er hand, very point­ed­ly high­lights the dan­gers of fol­low­ing a prophe­cied hero and how even a seem­ing­ly benev­o­lent col­o­niz­er is still a col­o­niz­er. Her­bert dis­liked the Hero’s Jour­ney and wrote Dune as dark counterpoint.Tolkien filled his tales with noble heroes who saw through and defeat­ed the flawed peo­ple steer­ing Mid­dle Earth to ruin. He also filled his tales with whim­sy. Her­bert made his cen­tral char­ac­ters, all of them, the flawed ones and his uni­verse is more omi­nous than all but the dark­est part of Mid­dle Earth. While both are great tales they’re opposed in many of the details of what an epic looks like.

  • James Felter says:

    Frank Her­bert’s Whip­ping Star and Dosa­di Exper­i­ment and oth­er sto­ries fea­tured BuSab,
    The Bureau of Sab­o­tage in an inter­stel­lar soci­ety divid­ed between humans and Gowachin [frog­like sapi­ent beings]. Busab evolved as a Lib­er­tar­i­an ter­ror­ist response over­ly pow­er­ful, effi­cient, and con­cen­trat­ed gov­ern­ment pow­er in ear­li­er eras of human gov­ern­ment. It was even­tu­al­ly incor­po­rat­ed into offi­cial gov­ern­ment struc­ture as a check on state pow­er capa­ble of assas­si­nat­ing over­ly pow­er­ful dem­a­gogues.
    Her­bert’s con­cept of Gowachin law fea­tured courts in which any par­ty present, the plain­tiff, the defend­ent, their advo­cates, or the judge(s), could be killed in the course of due process. This inclined every­one toward set­tle­ment out­side of court and toward a respect for justice–because jus­tice denied to any­one out­side of court could be dead­ly to any­one in court.

    Very dif­fer­ent from Tolkien.

  • TheReallyLittlePrince says:

    The reli­gious angle had to par­tic­u­lar­ly ran­kle JRRT. The inter­est­ing thing is Her­bert, as much as he decon­structs it, is poet­i­cal­ly rev­er­en­tial in tone, espe­cial­ly when describ­ing the rites of the Fre­men. The ambi­gu­i­ty makes it all the more com­pelling. Tolkien’s approach, which I love just as much, is that he has all spir­i­tu­al pres­ence embod­ied in the char­ac­ters and events of Mid­dle Earth but no one talks of scrip­ture, litur­gy, Gods, or rites. But the spir­i­tu­al ele­ment is there and ever present, if nowhere else than the title char­ac­ter who is basi­cal­ly an arch-demon.

  • Luuta says:

    Dune is the flip­side of LotRs. It tells the sto­ry of what hap­pens when you don’t reject the pow­er — that it leads to cor­rup­tion and ruin. It’s a warn­ing about trust­ing false mes­si­ahs. But it’s also set in a world where the orcs and oth­er denizens of the dark have won. Her­bert was also explor­ing whether it’s ok to fight evil with evil in order to defeat it, or to put it into more Chris­t­ian terms, whether Paul Atriedes sac­ri­fices him­self, just like Jesus Christ, in order to save his peo­ple, know­ing he would ulti­mate­ly go down in his­to­ry as a vile mon­ster.

    His pol­i­tics are osten­si­bly right wing, extrem­ist mil­i­taris­tic pow­er fan­tasies. This brings anoth­er aspect to the orig­i­nal tril­o­gy — that maybe this isn’t a satire or cri­tique of pow­er cor­rupt­ing absolute­ly, being a mir­ror to LotRs, that shares the same polit­i­cal view, but choos­es to present it from the view­point of the Dark Lord… But real­ly is a trea­tise on fas­cism. There is a great deal to sug­gest it is, and not a lot to sug­gest oth­er­wise. The view­point is always from the point of those with pow­er, and they abuse that pow­er remorse­less­ly. There is no oth­er view­point, to sug­gest that the fas­cism is in any way seen as a mir­ror dark­ly. It reads very much like a straight up Nazi fan­ta­sy. If Her­bert meant it as a warn­ing about fas­cism, it failed to make clear that it was. Tolkien would have read it read it as a fas­cist text and I’m pret­ty sure that Trump’s Amer­i­ca sees it as a fas­cist trea­tise.

    Her­bert would have seen Tolkien’s pas­toral view of the world as being fatal­ly roman­ti­cised, this is a world where ideas of good and evil are height­ened and that roman­tic views of nat­ur­al jus­tice are what sep­a­rates us from the vil­lains. In Tolkien’s world there is a cre­ator and he’s car­ing. In Dune the cre­ator is dead and the dev­il has won. Both view­points have their mer­its. Tolkien was­n’t naive enough to think his world was a true reflec­tion of real­i­ty, but he hoped that it would be held up as a hand­book on how one should live and warned against what hap­pens when peo­ple don’t do their dili­gent best. Her­bert may have been argu­ing that he was­n’t going to sug­ar coat the pill. If we keep think­ing we live in a fairy sto­ry, we’ll end up liv­ing in hell because we’re too com­pla­cent.

    These books are not as eas­i­ly deci­pher­able as you might imag­ine. They could actu­al­ly be extra­or­di­nar­i­ly very close in intent, or they could be at oppo­site ends of the polit­i­cal spec­trum. As with the ring, what you think of them might be as much to do with own prej­u­dices as those of the authors. The ring embod­ies that per­fect­ly, that our ide­olo­gies ampli­fy what is already there, fil­ter­ing out every­thing that does­n’t agree with our world view.

  • Aaron says:

    Tolkien believed in sav­iors. Her­bert warned us against them.

    In Arda and Mid­dle Earth, like in Chris­t­ian the­ol­o­gy, there is an ulti­mate good cre­ator who has promised aid to the faith­ful, even though con­di­tions con­tin­ue to dete­ri­o­rate with­in the cre­ation. And there are many faith­ful, at dif­fer­ent lev­els of pow­er.

    In Her­bert’s uni­verse, any­one claim­ing spir­i­tu­al author­i­ty to lead fol­low­ers is almost cer­tain­ly abus­ing it, or even­tu­al­ly will. If there’s an ulti­mate good, it is MIA.

    Any con­cept absolute belief is implic­it­ly crit­i­cized by Her­bert, even when believ­ers like the Fre­men are sym­pa­thet­ic.

    And also, LOTR is found­ed in unex­am­ined British colo­nial­ism. The peo­ples of the glob­al East and South fall under the Dark Lord’s sway. And Mor­dor is only held in check by Numenore­an colonists. The West rep­re­sents faith, hope and ideals. In LOTR, this is utter­ly foun­da­tion­al, even though peo­ple of the West can be cor­rupt­ed.

    OTOH, Her­bert’s most sym­pa­thet­ic peo­ple are Arab-cod­ed. The extrac­tive colonists are not at all sym­pa­thet­ic. That must’ve been hard for Tolkien to read.

  • Christopher Couch says:

    Hmm, I nev­er thought about the two as so dis­sim­i­lar that the author of one would scorn the oth­er. I’m afraid I’m drawn to both TLOTR and DUNE. The point raised about iso­la­tion res­onates. Any com­mu­ni­ty in DUNE appears to fall apart. Any shared vision seems thwart­ed. But that is a theme about that work. Maybe I appre­ci­ate nihilism as I appre­ci­ate togeth­er­ness, I don’t know. But I guess I’d expect dis­in­ter­est from Tolkien at most. Thanks for shar­ing this (to me) news!

  • Leo Raabe says:

    Thank you for the news, it is very inter­est­ing to hear of Tolkien’s feel­ings about Dune. Wikipedia reports that Frank Her­bert wrote in Chap­ter­house, “It is not that pow­er cor­rupts but that it is mag­net­ic to the cor­rupt­ible.” Tolkein, too, was clear­ly moti­vat­ed to por­tray pow­er as an agent of cor­rup­tion for humans. As they say, the dev­il’s in the details.

    Per­haps Tolkein saw Dune as Frank Her­bert play­ing with fire. It’s easy enough to pic­ture Tolkein as some­one who wants to write good books with a cap­i­tal G, and who sees Dune as a bad book with a cap­i­tal B. Judg­ing by the way that Tolkein shows us his char­ac­ters and the worlds they inhab­it, he was not a per­son who would eas­i­ly look upon what he con­sid­ered to be abom­i­na­tion. Though he may have care­ful­ly avoid­ed say­ing so, he might have seen Dune as a ser­i­al por­tray­al of abom­i­na­tion heaped upon abom­i­na­tion.

    That being said, I remain in awe of the lit­er­ary accom­plish­ments of both of these men and I agree with Luu­ta, above, that our fas­ci­nat­ed spec­u­la­tion here about their works remains quite spec­u­la­tive. Actu­al­ly, it could be a blast to write a hypo­thet­i­cal con­ver­sa­tion between those two authors on pre­cise­ly these mat­ters. That project would cer­tain­ly require a con­sid­er­able amount of research.

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