From the 20/20 point of view of the present, Joseph Stalin was one of the 20th century’s great monsters. He terrified the Soviet Union with campaign after campaign of political purges, he moved whole populations into Siberia and he arguably killed more people than Hitler. But it took decades for the scope of his crimes to get out, mostly because, unlike Hitler, Stalin stuck to killing his own people.
In early 1930s, however, Stalin was considered by many to be the leader of the future. That period was, of course, the nadir of the Great Depression. Capitalism seemed to be coming apart at the seams. The USSR promised a new society ruled not by the oligarchs of Wall Street but by the people — a society where everyone was equal.
H.G. Wells interviewed Stalin in Moscow in 1934 for the magazine The New Statesman. Wells was an avowed socialist and one of the left’s most influential authors. His first novel, The Time Machine, is essentially an allegory for class struggle after all. The interview between the two is fascinating.
Wells opens the piece by stating that he speaks for the common people. While that point is debatable — Stalin calls him out on that assertion – Wells does speak in a manner that is readily understandable. Stalin, in contrast, speaks in fluent Politburo. The blandness of his speech, choked with Communist boilerplate, seems designed to make the listener tune out. But then he drops little bon mots into his monologues that hint at the violence he has unleashed on his country. Take this line for instance:
Revolution, the substitution of one social system for another, has always been a struggle, a painful and a cruel struggle, a life-and-death struggle.
It’s a chilling line. Especially when you consider that at the time of this interview, Stalin was just starting to launch his first wave of political purges and he was plotting to assassinate his main political rival Sergei Kirov.
As the interview unfolds, you can imagine Wells growing increasingly frustrated by Stalin’s narrow, dogmatic view of the world. The Soviet leader, as Wells later wrote in his autobiography, “has little of the quick uptake of President Roosevelt and none of the subtlety and tenacity of Lenin. … His was not a free impulsive brain nor a scientifically organized brain; it was a trained Leninist-Marxist brain.”
At several points in the interview Wells challenges Stalin: “I object to this simplified classification of mankind into poor and rich,” the author fumes.
And when Stalin doesn’t agree with Wells that the Capitalist system was on its last legs, the author actually chides him for not being revolutionary enough. “It seems to me that I am more to the Left than you, Mr. Stalin; I think the old system is nearer to its end than you think.” Now that’s chutzpah.
In the end, the interview presents a dueling version of the future of the left. Wells believed, in essence, that the Capitalist world only needed to be reformed, albeit drastically, to achieve economic justice. And Stalin argued that Capitalism had to be torn down completely before any other reform could take place.
In spite of their differences, Wells left the interview with a positive impression of the Soviet leader. “I have never met a man more fair, candid, and honest,” he wrote.
Wells died in 1946 before the worst of Stalin’s crimes became known to the outside world. Stalin died in 1953. Following a stroke, his body remained on the floor in a pool of urine for hours before a doctor was called. His minions were terrified that he might wake up and order their execution.
You can read the entire interview between H.G. Wells and Stalin on The New Statesmen’s website here.
via Kottke
Related Content:
Joseph Stalin, a Lifelong Editor, Wielded a Big, Blue, Dangerous Pencil
How to Spot a Communist Using Literary Criticism: A 1955 Manual from the U.S. Military
Leon Trotsky: Love, Death and Exile in Mexico
Learn Russian from our List of Free Language Lessons
Jonathan Crow is a Los Angeles-based writer and filmmaker whose work has appeared in Yahoo!, The Hollywood Reporter, and other publications. You can follow him at @jonccrow.
Stalin’s corpse did not remain on the floor for days. Members of his family, household staff, doctors, and members of the Politburo including Beria were there to witness his final moments. Sloppy.
‘Stalin’s corpse did not remain on the floor for days.’
That was never stated.
Anyway, few tyrans have a good death.
Why would some argue that “perhaps” Stalin killed more people than Hitler? I have read figures of Stalin’s atrosities that range from twenty to twenty-eight million of his own people.
Why would some argue that “perhaps” Stalin killed more people than Hitler? I have read figures of Stalin’s atrosities that range as high as twenty million of his own people.
Correction to my first post. The first post is for the Russian lives lost in World War II
In the 20/20 of hindsight, the views of people like Wells look impossibly naive, if not downright ignorant, one finds it difficult to believe that Wells (and many others) knew nothing of the chaos and genocide sweeping the USSR under Stalin.
I think it’s pretty funny that Stalin ended up being the one who was right and Wells the one who was wrong. Also, can anyone cite hard figures on the number of people killed in Stalin’s “genocides”? Because I’ve never found anything beyond vague, sweeping accusations with no data backing them up.
The documents are being uncovered now and the number is getting more and more precise. As of now, according to various documents from soviet archives the total number of death due to repressions is around 700 000. That is for a period of 1930 to 1960s. This number includes politically repressed people, criminals, war criminals and people who collaborated with Hitler and were punished after the war.
There are a lot of accusations of tens of millions of repressed, but there are no factual data to back any of it up. Stalin was a controversial figure who did a lot of good and bad for USSR and it’s people. Talking to the people who lived in his time and were actually there to witness how it was to live in USSR with Stalin in power, almost all those people praise that period of time and say that he was a great leader. I think, in part, Stalin can be compared to Napoleon of France, except with much less acts of aggression against other countries.
Stalin proved to be more perceptive even than such an intellectual giant like H. G. Wells.
What a pathetic pile of raving anti-communist garbage in the intro.
Imagine living your life believing this gross distortion you spout is fact.
Typical anti-communist comment !! Anyway many “Americans” are pretty stupid when they can’t find North Korea on the map, don’t ask them for more complicated politics.
Typical anti-communist comment !! Anyway many “Americans” are pretty stupid when they can’t find North Korea on the map, don’t ask them for more complicated politics.
Placing Russian communism and Nazifascism on the same moral plane, to the extent that both would be total
Whoever insists on this equation may consider himself a democrat, but in truth and deep in his heart he is actually already a fascist, and of course he will only fight fascism in an apparent and hypocritical way, while leaving all his hatred for communism. (Thomas Mann)
dear chuck. There are literally more interviews than hair on my stupid head with people who lived in USSR when Stalin was gen.sec. etc. Theres this thing called youtube.com, you tube.
You can also come ask elderly yourself or my grandparents.